Agent Shags Death

LMFAO So I left and/or got BANED from some lame yahoo group today! [CRUNCHY SPRINGFIELD] I had a fun time in the process though!

It all started as a post like this:

So does EVERYONE here believe that spankings and time outs are totally
inappropriate? I know this is an alternative group here, but could I
be the ONLY parent that uses these? I try to keep them to a minimum
and use other discipline, but i still believe that I am not wrong in
my action.

A post by a new member got me wondering.

Don't hate me [too much at least] for my [not so] alternative view on
this?

So that wasn't so offensive, was it?

in response we have:

I believe spanking is abuse, plain and simple. Spanking is hitting and no one should ever hit a child. Children trust their parents by instinct, attachment parenting nurtures that trust, but disrespectful practices like spanking can break that trust. Spanking isn't about the child, it's about the parents and their inability to keep their emotions and impulses in check. That said, I shamefully admit I have hit Kairi, a slap when she was at her worst (before Feingold) and I was pregnant and my hormones and emotions were a wreck. It was wrong, it was my worst parenting moment ever.

Time-outs aren't great either, but we implement them right now. I remember having time-outs when I was little and all I remember learning from them was shame and abandonment. That's not what I want to teach my children. When Mike and I use time-outs we never isolate Kairi unless it's obvious she needs to be alone (and she lets us know and isolates herself). I try to make sure it's more of a time-in, an opportunity for her to calm and regroup. Whenever it's possible one of us will sit with her and quietly talk to her about what's going on, not in an accusing way, but in a trusting way to find out what is going on with her.

For the most part, we trust the kids to do what is right, and trust that they don't have negative intentions when things go wrong. For example, if Kairi is climbing the bookshelves and something breaks, she's not in trouble. I try to find out why she was climbing (she saw something she wanted to look at, needs exercise, etc) and I don't need to punish her because she's more upset about the broken object than I am, and we know she didn't mean to break anything.

Why would you spank? I'm asking honestly because I would like to know what a child can do that makes them deserving of being struck.

Soooooo, Off the bat I am abusive, NICE~! [that is what I shoot for after all ;) ]

Next we have a more rational beginning (and ending):

We too do time outs with Aili. But they are more like "breaks" and she goes in her room.
We found a chair in the corner was more of a jungle gym than a time to relax. So after
being told if the behavior is repeated she will go to her room, she will go, usually with out
arguement. I think she is starting to know when she needs to cool down a bit. She usually
goes in her room and lays in her bed and gets a book to "read" (she is 3). We set a timer
and she can hear it when it beeps and come back down stairs. We then talk about what
just happened and follow up with what is needed.
Spanking is another side of things. Some people may say what we do is spanking, others
may not. She does get a swat on the butt to get her attention to stop a behavior that will
cause harm to herself or others (usually her little brother). We do not put her over our
knee and hit her bare butt. Aili's doesn't respond well to long talkings to that play into her
emotions. She does not have the attention span to listen to that long of a converstaion. It
just doesn't work with her yet. It may some day, so we will keep trying. (Example: I told
her she has to hold my hand in the parking lot. She asked why and I told her it was the
rules. If I would have gone on about big cars going fast, not seeing little kids, getting
hurt, making me sad...wouldn' t work. But if I say, it's the rules, she says, Ok Mommy. We
use what works at that time for that child). We are working on the "how would it feel if..."
statements.
Parenting is a work in progress. We take it one day at a time.

So that wasn't so bad, but next we have the COLD HEARTED BITCH (this is when I realized I was getting flamed for my views that I [calmly, I was calm right?] expressed:

You're right Crystal.... no one deserves to be struck to get their attention or for punishment. Spanking is a cop-out... it's the lazy way to do things.

Woah! Somebody has got some sand in their vagina!

Next we have my cousin(s):

Personally, I totally ran out of patience after only a few weeks of
parenting. I have been known to yell, spank, and time-out on many
many occasions. I have successfully refrained from spanking for some
time now (with a six y/o it just seems ridiculous) and time out for a
few weeks maybe. Maybe less. The child can assault me relentlessly
sometimes, even just this morning, until I can sufficiently distract
her and revert to semi-productive silliness. I've been trying to take
a Taoist attitude when she's following me around hitting.

We're starting out from a messed-up context, so figuring out what to
do with ourselves and our young'uns is a bit of a challenge. That so
many people are even faintly considering things like homeschooling or
breastfeeding, I find promising.

That was not so bad either

But then we have this bitch quoting USA TODAY and CNN (how alternative):

Spanking - What Research Says

A 1994 survey (USA Today-CNN-Gallup Poll) found that 67 percent of American adults agree that, "it is sometimes necessary to discipline a child with a good, hard spanking." That's a 20 percent drop from a similar survey in 1986, but spanking remains a widely accepted discipline tool. The notion that spanking a child is a parent's obligation also persists.

Murray Straus, a leading researcher in the field of family violence, says spanking, hitting or slapping are all forms of corporal punishment. He defines corporal punishment as the use of physical force with the intent of causing bodily pain, but not injury, for the purpose of correction or control. Straus makes the following conclusions in his research:

A mother who has been hit by her husband is more likely to hit her children.

Parents who were hit when they were children or teenagers are more likely to do the same thing to their own children.

The more a parent was hit as a teenager, the greater the chances that parent will physically abuse his or her own child.

There is little difference between white parents and minority groups in the use of corporal punishment, although minority group parents tend to support its use more. From the research of Straus and others, we've learned quite a bit about the effects of spanking. We've learned that spanking teaches kids that hitting others is morally correct. In other words, hitting is okay if the other person is doing something wrong and won't stop it.

We've learned that children who are spanked control their behavior to avoid being hit. But children of nonspanking parents tend to control their behavior on the basis of right and wrong. They learn to control their behavior without parental involvement. We've also learned that the more corporal punishment an individual experiences, the greater the probability that person as an adult will be depressed, feel alienated and have thoughts of committing suicide. Higher rates of depression and alienation can lead to lower earnings and occupational achievement later in life.

Here are some other things you should know about spanking:

Seventy percent of child abuse cases begin as spanking.

Spanking hinders the development of empathy remorse or compassion. The child focuses on the pain, rather than the effect of his or her own behavior on others.

Corporal punishment, used at the toddler age, can reduce the degree to which children develop a conscience.

The research done by Straus tells us that if parents avoid spanking and find other ways to discipline, they are likely to have children who are easier to manage and better behaved.

For more information visit the Children Youth and Families Education Research Network web site at www.cyfernet. org.

source: http://www.extensio n.umn.edu/ info-u/families/ BE712.html

Ahh, '94. . . What a year! So what I get out of this is that if you use what the "study" deems corpral punishment, you are abuseing your child. Also because I used to beat Rachelle, she is going to beat Daryk and Jesse, and also because I can remember getting 2 spankings when I was little, I am going to anally rape my grandmother and pour sugar in her gas tank!

Yes, This group was an awesome group. . .

NEXT! The bitch was on a roll quoting from some stupid book:

To Spank or Not to Spank?
By Elizabeth Pantley

In my house, my father had a belt hanging on a hook in the kitchen. It was a visible reminder to be good or to be put over his knee. We were all afraid of that belt.

One day, my father couldn’t find the belt. Eventually it was found in the trash can — my little sister, then age six, had decided the garbage would be a better place for it. She was due for a spanking and was trying to avoid it. Once discovered, she knew her spanking would be worse than ever.

When my father put her over his knee, he noticed that her little rear end had been replaced by a large lumpy surface — wadded-up towels in her underpants. Boy, did he get angry! He pulled out the towels, pulled down her pants and proceeded to hit her. I can still remember the welts on her bottom after her bare skin was hit with that belt. I remember thinking, “Yuck!”

As a mother with four children of my own, the memory brings tears to my eyes. The odd thing about this story is that both my sister and I remember the spanking, but neither of us can recall what the behavior was that caused it. We know that our father must have been trying to teach a lesson. The lesson, however, has been lost. The memory of the spanking is all that remains.

A legacy of punishment
Our parents punished us the same way in which they were punished. And their parents punished them the same way that they themselves were punished as children. After all, we learn what we live. We tend to parent the way we were parented.

Somewhere along the line, parents need to stop the pattern. They need to evaluate their child-rearing methods, especially checking for those destructive practices that they may be following simply out of habit. Parents need to research the current data, analyze their current parenting results and continually look for better answers.

Considering spanking
I have four children. They are respectful, responsible, well behaved and just plain great kids. I don’t believe in spanking and have used only positive, loving discipline with them. Parents often ask me whether they should spank their children or not. When looking at the issue of spanking, I urge them to consider the following.

Spanking does nothing to teach a child to develop inner discipline. A child’s focus is on the spanking itself, not on a review of the behavior that led to it. After a spanking, a child does not sit in his room and think, “Gee, I sure goofed. But I really learned something. Next time I’ll behave.” Instead a child is typically thinking, “It’s not fair! She doesn’t understand! I hate her.”

Spanking is seen as punishment for a crime or payment for a debt. In other words, once paid, they have a clean slate. Spanking gets in the way of allowing a child to develop a conscience. The guilt that follows misbehavior is a prime motivator for change. Spanking takes away the guilt, because the crime has been paid for.

Spanking makes the parent feel better. When we get angry, we move into the “fight or flight” mode. Our adrenaline increases, and we have a primitive need to strike out. Hitting releases this negative energy and helps us feel better. But even a minor spanking can escalate into major abuse. Parents have reported that during the heat of the moment, it’s hard to stop hitting, and some say that they don’t even realize how hard they’ve hit until they see the bruise.

Parents who spank sometimes come to rely upon spanking as their primary source of discipline. If you give yourself permission to spank, it becomes a quick fix for all kinds of problems. It blocks off the effective use of other more productive skills.

Spanking gets in the way of a healthy parent-child relationship. Children look up to their parents as protectors, teachers and guides. When a parent breaks that pattern by hitting a child, the relationship suffers.

Spanking is not an effective form of discipline. Hitting a child typically stops a behavior at that point because of shock, fear or pain. But most children turn around and repeat the same behavior – sometimes even the same day! Parents who spank often find themselves spanking a child many times a day – so if spanking “works,” why is this so?

Spanking does teach a lesson. The lesson is: “When you don’t know what else to do, hit!” or “When you’re bigger, you can hit,” or “When you’re really angry, you can get your way by hitting.” It’s common knowledge that children who are frequently hit are more likely to accept the use of violence and are more likely to hit other children. It only makes sense, because after all, children learn what they live. Children who are spanked often have more resentment and anger and lower self-esteem.

What if your child is in danger?
Even with these points in mind, I’ve read several articles that address the issue of spanking where the writer says it’s okay to spank if the child is in danger – for instance, if a toddler is running into the street or reaching out to touch a hot burner on the stove. They suggest that at these times, a few pops on the rear end are okay.

I must admit this naïve mindset baffles me. Why in the world would we want to teach our children about safety by hurting them? Does your ski instructor jab you with his ski pole to teach you not to jump off the chair lift?

A parent who believes that spanking is the only effective way to teach a young child about safety issues is not giving the child enough credit. Children – even little ones – can indeed learn about safety through our teaching them. As a matter of fact, through teaching they will learn much more, as they can absorb the reason for the rule and, over time, learn to make good decisions on their own.

I watched two friends one summer teach their toddlers not to run in the street. Mom A give her toddler a swat on the rear every time he went into the street. Mom B picked up her toddler, looked him in the eye and said, “NO street! Dangerous. Stay by Mommy.” By the end of the summer, both children learned to stay out of the street. Which child understood why? And which child has better communication with his mother?

Positive, respectful, consistent discipline is the real key to raising well-behaved children.

So yes, I must beat my children to welts with a belt.

Hi Paul,

I'm probably the new member you're talking about. I'm new to the
group, but I've known Crypixie (Crystal) on message boards for
nearly
three years. I think whether or not a parent thinks spanking is
apppropriate depends on their preconceieved notions of how children
are and should act. Parents who expect children to always listen,
to always remember the last lesson without being reminded, to act like
pint-sized adults including having adult stamina and internal
resources are the one most likely to spank. In my observations the
majority of spankings stem from the parent feeling angry or
embarrassed.

There are easy ways to elminate spankings. First, understand that
gentle discpline doesn't mean letting kids run wild. I've never
spanked or used time-out and my son is extremely well-behaved. He's
that way because I know what a child his age is physically,
emotionally, and cognitively so I don't expect more from him than he
is capable of giving. Children are programmed to love their
parents, our species wouldn't have survived if children were born to
antagonize and disobey their parents at every turn. Therefore, it only makes
sense that anything a child does is because they are applying the
knowledge they have at their disposal to a situation. I'm an adult,
mid-twenties, and even I sometimes mess things up, or think I'm
doing something right but it turns out that I was way off. All we adults
make mistakes, say things we don't mean, get angry and throw the
stupid whatsit that's not working. The difference between us and
children is that no one watches over our shoulder to make sure we're
always perfect.

Here are ways to end spankings. Number one, and most importantly, be
there for your child. Not as a hovering discipline figure waiting
for the first mistake but as a playmate.

Pay attention to your kids wants and needs. Don't make the mistake
of "I'm the parent, I work hard, so I deserve all this time to
myself". I've seen too many parents ignore their kids to the point
where the kid eventually gives up trying to connect with the
parent.

Give plenty of positive interaction. Smiles, kind words, and big,
spontaneous hugs keep a child's "cup" filled with warmth and
happiness. A child who feels good about herself if much less likely
to act in inappropriate or damaging ways. When people feel better,
they act better.

Make sure your expectations are age-appropriate and uderstandable.
Don't fall into the habit of putting ",okay?" at the end of
sentences when the subject is non-negotionable. When I worked as a
daycare teacher I saw way too many parents say that, effectively
giving their kids a choice, and then get angry when the kid made
the 'wrong' choice. An example would be, parent came to pick up
their child, who is playing happily with their friends. Parent "We
need to go, okay?" To the child the 'okay' means, "I'm asking what
you want."

Or "Do you want to stay here all night?" This is just plain mean
and breaks down trust. If the child decides, well yes, of course
I'd like to play all night and says so, the parent gets angry that
their sarcasm doesn't make an effective discipline tool. I've seen
those two scenarios many times. The result is an angry, snapping
parent and a confused, withdrawn kid who feels lied to.

Always keep in mind HALT. Hungry, angry, lonely, tired. Is your
kid acting up? Are they feeling any of these sensations? Try to
work with your kid to fix the problem instead of just putting a
bandaid over it by spanking them.

I need to go, my kids are getting wild, and well, acting like
kids. :-)

At least she said my fucking name. Not awful, but still making me out to be the asshole, I never said I spank my kids on the hour every hour and expect them to consume, conform and obey! I never said I expect them to be adults and remember every last detail about everything I teach them, but alas, I am the whipping boy from here on out:

Hi!

If you’re using a timer to let her know when it’s okay to come out of her room, then yes, you are using time out. An equally effective but less punishing discipline is to say, “You look upset. When I feel upset I get hot. Do you feel hot? Maybe you’d like to go play by yourself to cool off? You do? Okay, just come back whenever you feel better.” This puts the control in her corner. She knows to look inside herself to know when she feels better instead of relying on an arbitrary time.

My 2.5 year old son has never been spanked even for doing dangerous things like running across the road. One common parenting concern is the child will touch a hot stove. Put yourself in the kid’s spot. She watches mom and dad open and close, push buttons, turn knobs, and pull delicious food out of the oven almost every day. It looks like a big fun toy. When Antonin first started crawling I filled a coffee mug so the outside was hot (but not burning hot). I told him it was hot and let him touch and explore it. A few days later I opened the oven door and held him as he felt the heat. Again I emphasized “hot”. He got the point, no punishment needed.

Scenario 2: Running across the road. Well, if anyone needs their butt slapped it’s the parent for not completely ensuring their child’s safety. That’s the parent’s job, after all. If the kid is so young they haven’t learned road safety it’s the parent’s responsibility to keep them in sight and close enough to grab at a moment’s notice. When my son was around 20 months we held hands to get the mail. At the mailbox I foolishly let go of him to get the mail. He started back across the road. I immediately jumped after him, grabbed his hand, and held it as we crossed the road. As we walked I explained the importance of holding hands. Later we sat and watched cars go by together. I mentioned how vehicles are very big and would give “big ouchies” if he crossed in front of one. That helped, but of course, I no longer take my attention away even for a second. Little kids mean well but their very inquisitive and impulsive. They can’t help it, it’s just how they’re programmed. It’s the kids job to learn and explore, it’s our job to make sure where their exploring is safe.

I agree with your use of “it’s the rules.” I think it’s important that kids know their family’s rules and that other family’s have different rules. I don’t think kids should ever be punished for forgetting those rules.

Three year olds aren’t going to respond well to be talked to. They’re little kids, curious, impulsive, short-attention spans. I remember some of my dad’s lectures. Oh geez, they were boring! I had trouble listening to his boring speeches longer than 30 seconds and I was a teenager! Three year old need easy to understand rules, short and simple commands, and plenty of loving guidance. The best way to grab their attention is to get on their level, say their name and wait for acknowledgment. If nothing happens after a moment, try putting your hand on their shoulder. State your expectations then actively wait for it to get done. I used to ask my son to do something, then repeat it over and over again. Then I started to notice, if I’m asked to do something I always come to a stopping point with whatever I’m working on. It made me realize that kids deserve the same sort of time allowance. After realizing that I’ve noticed it almost never takes Toe longer than a minute to tidy up loose ends and do what I need.

It’s all about the parent having realistic expectations and mutual respect.

Perhaps I have UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS, that must be why I feel it is ok to spank my child when need be.

NEXT :

Another thing to remember that helps us with Kairi, is to give a child transition time! You'll hear us say things like "OK, Kai, you've got 5 more minutes and then we have to go home" or "You can go down the slide 2 more times before we leave" We try very hard to make sure not to spring anything on her. Transitions are difficult for kids (especially sensitive or high needs kids) so we try to make them easier.

Allright, we do that, anyways NEXT we have ME, PAUL BAKER, going off for an hour, mabye not making much sense, but at this point I could care less. . .

He He He, I think I HIT a nerve here! lol. I am glad at least someone
put "I BELIEVE" in front of their VIEWS. Also I do not trust CNN or
USA TODAY nor do I believe them to be a viable source of information.
And to the FLAMING . . . Name calling could most certainly be
called abuse as well!(It's not a great way to change someones mind on
a subject either!) LMFAO. maybe I did not explain well enough about my
uses of discipline. Yes I do spank. It IS the last resort. No I do not
ABUSE my children (in my opinion.) I have gone to jail for reasons
involving domestic situations when I was younger. I believe because of
this I have a pretty good grasp on what abuse is now [i can already
hear the scoffs at this]. I took 30 weeks worth of DV classes. I
understand damn well what constitutes as abuse. I understand most
everyone here considers spanking to be abuse, but I still strongly
believe you cant group ALL spanking as ABUSE (or plain outright
copping opt/laziness) ...(the flame STILL cracks me up). I DO BELIVE
THAT SPANKING IN A LOT OF SITUATIONS COULD BE ABUSE, but you cant
simply group all parents who spank into a big lump of ABUSIVE
PARENTS(or lazy parents, lol) without seeming pretty narrow minded. I
don't spank at the drop of a pin, nor do I use excessive force, or
other objects (belts, rods etc.) I don't ADD humiliation to the
spanking (yes, being spanked might humiliate some children on its own)
I want my child to know that when he does something that he KNOWS is
wrong but does it anyway that there are consequences for that. We
always make sure he has been told and explained to about what is OK to
do and what is NOT OK to do. Before the spankings even become an
option we try to talk on my sons level, we use eye contact, talk
calmly to him, I know at least I use "okay?" at the end of a lot of my
sentiences. We give Daryk (my 3 year old) a chance to "do it himself"
(or STOP doing it himself) or mom or dad will have to do it for him.
Distraction as well. and sometimes all this does not work. Then we go
to the "timeout". There may be a misunderstanding by what I consider a
timeout. We don't put him in a corner, or alone. He is in the center
of a room and we are there with him. usually the whole family is
(right now that would be G-ma, G-pa, mom, dad, and baby brother Jesse)
and he usually just has to stay in his chair for as many minutes as he
is years old. Then he can get out and go on about his business, unless
he goes back to getting in trouble. Now If the trouble he is getting
into involves destroying every last shred of the roof that covers his
head, I simply cannot allow to have it continue (what some MAY
consider to be a "ignore approach"[allowing the behavior to continue,
but letting it run its course]) because as much as I will be flamed
for putting keeping property intact over keeping my child spanking
free [and as much as it conflicts with my views on direct action, for
those FEW of you that know me] I must make a last ditch effort to let
Daryk know that when he is destroying or hitting other kids [more
flaming to come for this as well I'm sure(you know, the whole
cycle-of-violence thing)], And OUR Step #1(calm talking non violent
aproach) and Step #2(the timeouts as I described) do not work, YOUR
DAMN RIGHT THAT THE NEXT STEP (for me, with my ways of [what some
think in the back of their minds is not] Parenting) IS A(SINGLE) SPANK
ON THE BARE BUTT.

I am not great at composing my thoughts on paper, so the above jumble
of words may confuse some or take a few readings over.

I got Invited to join this group by someone (probably thinking me to
be SOMEWHAT Alt @ the least) and I did, but maybe I'm not hard-core
ALT enough to be part of this community. I dunno, I mean, If I came to
JOF with crunchys one day, and my kid did something i felt deserved a
timeout or a spanking. I could almost guarantee that I would get
flamed/scolded/ dirty looks by another member. And well, I just don't
know if I could deal with that with a level head. I know maybe that
wouldn't happen, and my kid would probably be having too much fun to
act out, BUT, I would feel uncomfortable even having the possibility
hovering over my head. Now I may not be Crunchy enough, but I am not
quite an ordinary dude. I have some pretty fucked up views on shit
that would most certainly not be considered to be the norm, and then
theres a part of me thats more mainstream than I like. Sometimes [more
often than I would like to admit, I'm sure] I become hypocritical. But
for the most part I am not your standard fare. I believe that so often
now days people are too one sided with their approach to things.
Black/White, Rep/Dem, In/Out. Wheres the middle ground? Can we not
incorporate many styles to make our own?

I probably didn't answer anybodies questions about why I spank well
enough, and my honesty about my past will put some off. I probably
used to much sarcasm, and ranted to much. I probably made most of you
never want to meet me. But WTF is the point of being in some damn
yahoo group if I never stir things up and express my views?

-Paul aka agentshags

lol, HALT thats from AA/NA is it not? [don't ask me how I would know
that!] We are usually pretty good at realizing if hunger and tiredness
is playing a part in the problem. I believe that he is not very lonely
because we spent a great deal of time with him. And as far as his
anger, that only usually shows AFTER he is punished for doing
something he knows is wrong (or gets caught. He has been lying to us
latley) - also we do the "transition" stuff as well

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
[from wikipedia]
Minimal use of spanking

Despite the intensity of the controversy over spanking, positions
between the two extremes are also common. Many parents believe that
spanking is not inherently abusive and can sometimes be an effective
form of discipline, but also believe that it should usually be
avoided. Some, for instance, use spanking only when a child does
something dangerous and it is critical that an immediate, lasting
impression must be made. Others point out that individual differences
in temperament have a great effect on the way children respond to
discipline, and criticize both extreme positions on spanking as taking
a "one size fits all" approach. They argue that spanking may be the
most effective form of discipline for some children, but that it
should only be used on those particular children who respond well to
spanking and do not respond to alternative methods of discipline.
------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

Ahhhh, let it all hang loose!

Reading through your post it seems evident that spanking is a normal mindset for you. As long as you believe that it’s okay to hit little kids who are too small to defend themselves or even offer an intelligent argument in their own defense then you are going to continue to see situations where spankings are justified. Little kids are naturally egocentric, impulsive-driven, bundles of inquisitive energy. They also notice every single new thing that comes into the house. I can’t bring a speck of dust in the house with my 2.5 year old wanting to see it and play with it. That’s just how kids are. In my opinion, if people are going to bother having kids, they need to take full responsibility for those kids, including understanding all developmental levels.

When he touches something could you try:

Ask yourself, “Why does his touching that bother me?”
Ask yourself, “What is he getting out of touching it? Is he learning about a new thing? Does he know touching it makes me mad and wants to see my expression? Does it fit in his hand, making it fun to carry? Does it have bright colors?”
Ask yourself. “Can he look at it while I supervise? Would it really hurt to let him play with it as long as he stays in sight?”

Kids have short attention spans. There have been so many times that my son has had something that wasn’t a toy, carried it around for a while, and as soon as he sat it down I moved it to where he couldn’t see it anymore.

Here’s something I remind myself: “What’s more important, your son or a thing?” That keeps things in perspective for me.

Could you be more specific about your son hitting other kids?

Allright, so offers alternitives! Thats a start at least! ASIDE from her being a TOTAL BITCH about me hitting little kids. She makes it sound like I pop my kid in the jaw. I would like to pop her in her jaw, but thats a difrent story!

Here is a level headed response:

to be honest, if I believed it was necessary to put my children into time-outs and spank them in order to help them be caring, gentle, confident adults...I’d have no hesitations doing it. As it is, however, I believe that children become what they see. I need to treat my child the way I want him to treat me back. If I think he shouldn’t be able to hit me when he’s angry, I shouldn’t hit him just because I’m angry. If I don’t want my husband to walk out of the room when I share difficult emotions, I shouldn’t be doing that to my children.

I tend to see parents that use spanking “rationalizing” it by saying they only use it when their child hits others. If that really is an issue with your child where they are deliberately hurting others, shouldn’t we be looking at how we treated our child in the first place? What have they seen in their home? How are emotions handled?

When I’m acting crabby and irritable, my husband says to me: “What’s this really about?” I do the same thing for my oldest son (my youngest is only 2 months old). If he’s acting “crazy” that day, then why? This week, he’s been a bear to be around because it’s been so damn cold outside. He’s not getting the chance to run around like usual. I try to help him with the pent-up energy by wrestling with him, jumping on the bed, chasing around the house, getting around other kids, and my husband spent 4 hours with him at Jungle of Fun yesterday. If I’d just punished his behavior, I would have lost out on the chance to teach him about himself – that he needs a lot of activity to be the person he’s meant to be. As he gets older, he can absorb that self-regulation and learn his own cues. If I’m only punishing the behavior, he loses out on the chance to listen to his inner voices. He’s a human being that I’m asked to guide and nurture – not my object or possession to shape and manipulate to my wishes.

I will say that not acting aggressively with my oldest at times takes absolutely every last shred of my will-power. I can feel this Thing well up in me that wants to hurt him into listening to me. It’s the scariest, darkest moments in motherhood. It’s when I have to look closely at myself, not at him. It’s not about his particular behavior at that point in time– it’s because I haven’t dealt with my own hot buttons and developed better ways to handle tense moments with him. I need to work on my own growing when I’m feeling that way. Or to practice self-care... have my husband take him out and do something, take a long bath, read a book, write emails. I can’t take it out on Jack just because he can’t defend himself. He’s not going to be able to handle emotions and situations better at 2.5 years old than I am at 28. It’s unfair for me to ask that of him!

If we can’t handle our own emotions without aggression and yelling, how can we teach them how to handle theirs? We have to be the persons we want our children to become.

All this commotion over little old me? I'm honored!

think that was the part that surprised me the most in my decision to not use punishment with my son. I didn’t realize how deep the rage could be at times, against this precious little boy. That parenting involves a heightened sense of ALL the emotions – not just the good ones. =) So while I rarely, rarely yell at Jack (I can remember vividly every one of the few episodes) and I’ve never struck him, I have felt that sense of shaking rage where I have to override everything. It’s amazing how our own upbringing and human emotion can be so strong at times. But again, I don’t think my children should pay the price for the strength of my emotion – just because I couldn’t keep my own primal instincts intact...

And I have to say, I’m incredulous at how gently Jack treats us and his baby brother. I do believe you can create gentleness in a child through example and not through force...

SO HERE IT GETS REAL GOOD!:

Paul,

A major part of Attachment Parenting is Gentle Discipline. We will NOT host discussions that promote or embrace spanking. This is your first warning. Any further posts of this nature will result in banning.

SLOW DOWN, Was I REALLY being bad? I asked a fucking question, got flamed and defended my views? Isn't that what groups are for, to discuss views? Nazis will be Nazis. . .

ZIEG CRUNCHY! HEIL HIPPIES!

So after that, I made a point of getting booted, (or did I quit first?)
Who really cares, I wont miss them, they wont miss me.

. . .but. . .

I had to go out with a bang, (like always)

Read on my friends:

So in other words this is an exclusive club that will not discuss
controversy. Fuck Off. I'm Out. Have Fun In your pretend little
universe. I'm so sorry I actually made you think a little. Is your
"Warning" part of your "Gentile Discipline"? What part of "whatever
you want to talk about!" does CENSORSHIP fall under? I feel you are
DISCRIMINATING against me. THIS WILL NOT BE TOLERATED! Lmfao. And I
thought I was the hypocritical one. . .

not all of you, but a few are pretentious fucks that are close minded
and can suck my balls. Come on over to my house and I'll give YOU a
spanking Crystal!

Go ahead, BAN ME! I gave this BS "hippie" group a chance, but dare I
express my VIEWS! God forbid! That might lead to discussion!

LEST WE FORGET THE DESCRIPTION! :

____________ _________ _
Description
For those in the Springfield, Illinois area who practice Attachment
Parenting (AP), Natural Family Living, Gentle Discipline, for gentle
mainstream parents, and crunchy hippie parents alike. Topics include
homeschool, unschool, montessorri, waldorf, breastfeeding, child led
weaning, homebirth, cloth diapering,eliminati on communication,
babywearing, vaccinations (all, selective, none), nutrition, area
events whatever you want to talk about! Discrimination and acts of
abuse will NOT be tolerated.
------------ --------- --------- --------

So before you BAN ME WITH GLEE, think about what I really did wrong.
Said I endorse spanking as a last resort? Fucking whopdie flop! At
least I didn't call any of you copouts. I am not a bad parent because
I spank or give timeouts. You may believe I am (I KNOW YOU BELIEVE I
AM) But you don't know me. My children are happy, not trembling in
fear of the next spanking. I am gentle most of the time, but unlike
some of you fucks, I wont stand by and say "MmKay?" While the kid
burns down the house with a blowtorch! Assume that you have my #, go
ahead. Anyway, this group proved to be a waste of my time. My original
post was not even that awful, simply asking if I was the only parent
to employ spanking and time outs, BUT you gots to be a NAZI about it,
so, NO DIVERSITY #2626, OBEY, OBEY, OBEY! Don't think or question!

BTW, THAT SPANKING THING WAS A JOKE, I WOULD NEVER REALLY WANT TO
SPANK AN ASS THAT NASTY!

LMFAO!

So anywayz, like its a whole bunch of stupid posts (mostly) but these fags can suck my dick, I dont know if I am done harassing them yet. . .

Agent Shags Death

Friday, September 7, 2007

Every Other Day. . .

Fuck Pizza Hut

Monday, June 18, 2007

bipauler

Monday, February 26, 2007

Fuck Crunchy Faggots

Spanking - What Research Says

Tuesday, December 19, 2006

H.C.S,E.A.B.O.D v2.0

u want me 2 contribute, all I got is bl00d 4 u

take aim and fire

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